Bird Species Result Of Climate Change?
A group of scientists are scratching their heads this week as they try to figure out how a new species of bird came to be, way up in the mountains of Vermont. The bird was found on Stratton Mountain, and they think it's a hybrid of two species, the trush and the veery birds, which are normally found in much lower elevations. This new species is a variation of the Bicknell thrush, and scientists will be doing more DNA testing to see if this new species is a result of climate change. Veery
Song Trush
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This is NOT "punctuated equilibrium!" Gould & Eldredge came up with punctuated equlibrium as a way to explain MACROevolution. What is going on here is pretty clearly MICROevolution in action. In this case, there seems to be a hybrid population living at a higher altitude than its ancestral stock; that's a good start. IF this population is fertile AND this population manages to become isolated from its parent stock, Then it MAY become a distinct species. The isolation mechanism can be physical or behavioral, but it must prevent the hybrid stock from reintegrating back into it's ancestral population until its genome has changed sufficiently to permanently prevent any crossbreeding with parental species. That may take another 10,000 years. Anyway, good research...
\apologies if this comment comes off as smarter-than-thou.
\\Spending too much time on FARK...
This might be the source article of this posting, or very near to the source: http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080714/NEWS04/...
It is about habitat loss, and possible range shift possibly due to climate change of two very similar species, the Veery and the Bicknell's, both "Thrushes" and both very similar, now evidently close enough to interbreed. [Not like the 'song' or wood thrush as pictured above.] DNA testing is reclassifying species all the time, now, and is incomplete and inconclusive in this case. If it is a hybrid is it a fertile hybrid? Would it be called a new species? Probably not, or at least not soon.
The rutlandherald article is technical and accurate, read the middle not just the beginning and ending paragraphs to get perspective. Thanks to Robster on the rawstory comment page for this link.
Firstly, as pointed out, this is a hyped article not based in fact.
Secondly, the commenters have a sadly uneducated view of evolution. Evolution, in the popular sense, is seen as small gradual changes over time accumulating into the creation of a new species. However, current views by those in the field of evolutionary biology hold that changes happen in relatively fast spurts in between long periods of relative stasis. This is called punctuated equilibrium... I'll spare you the gory details. Evolution, while it can deal with species emergence is at it's basest definition: the change of alleles in a population from one generation to the next. Therefore, all populations undergo evolution. A hybrid is indeed evolution.
Thirdly, a dog of any breed is still the same species. A great Dane is the same species as a Chihuahua is the same species as a cockapoo. Now, a fox and a poodle are different species. (The term "species", however, is also a debated term within the scientific community and can be defined in at many ways.) For a layperson, my explanation holds true. If you were to consider a more monophyletic taxon model of "species", it may not.
My point is: biology is a lot more complicated than you may think. I encourage you to look into it further and take some classes to get a better idea of some key concepts. It's fun if you're willing to spend some energy into it; and it's more fun to be right when you're trying to look smart. :)
I re-read this and just can't help myself -
"However, current views by those in the field of evolutionary biology hold that changes happen in relatively fast spurts in between long periods of relative stasis. This is called punctuated equilibrium... I'll spare you the gory details."
This just in: PE is still a loooong way from being accepted by "mainstream" EB. And you should mention that "fast spurts" still means "many generations." Sparing people the 'gory' details is not fair. Spend a moment to explain, otherwise you are MISinforming.
"A hybrid is indeed evolution."
Huh?
"(The term "species", however, is also a debated term within the scientific community and can be defined in at many ways.)"
Mayr's BSC is pretty foolproof for many arguments, and serves the layperson well. Again, you leave the reader underinformed, and without any defintion of a species whatever.
BSC = "Species are groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups." There. 4 second GIS.
"I encourage you to look into it further and take some classes to get a better idea of some key concepts. It's fun if you're willing to spend some energy into it; and it's more fun to be right when you're trying to look smart. :)"
Well said - please pick up a copy of S.J. Gould's "Structure..." and read it. Every page. It took him 20 years to write, so allow yourself at least 10 years to read and digest it. Read a little Mayr and Dennett, maybe some Dawkins (who doesn't like PE all that much) along the way. Learn about the Spandels of San Marcos. Examine how SJG's approach to PE "evolved" over time.
I usually just lurk on message boards, but this one time I felt the need to correct an internet "expert." Carry on.
Dude, you are getting a lot of traffic from Rawstory.com - where I linked from seeing what "new species" could have just been discovered or made... And did a tad of research before making this post. Not a lot mind you, but enough and with links.
First: the thrush you named as "verry" is VEERY. That is what irritated me into registering and posting. At least that is the only name close enough that looks like the picture and in fact is a North American Thrush.
Second, the "Song Thrush" names an Old World Thrush. Perhaps you meant the WOOD THRUSH, as the second picture might be of, which is the only thrush that looks like that which lives in Vermont and could be having sex with VEERYS. Who knows as the picture not referenced and the thrushes do look similar enough.
This is bad enough, stuff any North American birdwatcher knows and can easily find in any birdbook, but there's more for anyone who does a Google search any third grader could do:
(Thirdly:) The "new" "species" of Thrush has been observed since 1881, (before the commonly held beginning of 'global warming,') and had always been considered a subspiecies of the Gray-cheeked Thrush. (Not pictured, not referenced.)
For the birdnerds:
http://audubon2.org/watchlist/viewSpecies.jsp?id=27
http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/bicknells_thrush/e/species_is_born.html
A new species actually appearing is different from a bunch of scientists arguing about taxonomy, or new DNA testing proving differences not apparent before requiring reclassification. Nomenclature and actual NEW ANIMALS being observed are completely different.
If a fish evolves to mimic a plastic bag or an animal starts respiring CO2, well, then THAT will be a "New Species."
[quote=JamesR]Dude, you are getting a lot of traffic from Rawstory.com - where I linked from seeing what "new species" could have just been discovered or made... And did a tad of research before making this post. Not a lot mind you, but enough and with links.
[/quote]
Thanks! I only had a small press release to work with when I wrote this little story early early in the morning when it first hit the wire. I figured more would be developed throughout the day, spurring conversation and what not.
I was also unclear as to whether this unusual bird was a new "species" or not, but once again, I figured it would spur conversation and more information supported by professionals would clear this up.
:-)
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I'd rather be camping!
Aah the hasty posting. THANKS for the response, especially after I was a tad harsh. I am a birdwatcher, you know how they (we) are. And it has provoked discussion - yet I would still be interested in the source of the initial report. ?? You referred to a wire story, I was curious to find the source, or at least the source you found this report on.
I realize most stories like these copy each other, getting more and more inaccurate with each copy kinda like the biological aging process, but since I went and posted and got interested already I am now interested to find the source. And of course give THEM feedback. ['Lol.']
I also would rather be camping, and looking for new species, or old. At least you can supposedly smell a Sasquatch or Skunk-ape coming, as you can't actually smell internet science articles of dubious provenance. Thanks!
[quote=JamesR]Aah the hasty posting. THANKS for the response, especially after I was a tad harsh. I am a birdwatcher, you know how they (we) are. And it has provoked discussion - yet I would still be interested in the source of the initial report. ?? You referred to a wire story, I was curious to find the source, or at least the source you found this report on.I realize most stories like these copy each other, getting more and more inaccurate with each copy kinda like the biological aging process, but since I went and posted and got interested already I am now interested to find the source. And of course give THEM feedback. ['Lol.'] I also would rather be camping, and looking for new species, or old. At least you can supposedly smell a Sasquatch or Skunk-ape coming, as you can't actually smell internet science articles of dubious provenance. Thanks![/quote]
I can't find the original wire, but here's an article about it I just found.
http://www.rutlandherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080714/NEWS04/...
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I'd rather be camping!
According to another website Bicknell's Thrush was discovered by Eugene Bicknell in 1881. How is this new?
http://www.ns.ec.gc.ca/wildlife/bicknells_thrush/e/species_is_born.html
Stratton Mountain has even hosted an annual Bicknell's study by the Vermont Institute of Natural Science since 1997.
http://www.stratton.com/Community/environment/bicknell.htm
Come On!
Evolution takes a loooooong time...is this article suggesting that evolution is accelerated up by global climate change? Just because this species was discovered recently doesn't mean it just diverged (or emerged depending on how you look at it).
City of Toledo
Division of Environmental Services
an International Award Winning City
The article didn't say anything about evolution. The article suggests that two different (but similar) species of bird have been breeding with each other, creating a new hybrid species. That is *not* evolution. This discovery is like breeding two dog species, say the cocker spaniel and poodle, to produce a new species, the cockapoo.
Evolution is the process of species changing over a period of time. While evolution includes hybridization, the existence of hybrids doesn't necessarily imply evolution.
well we are causing some bird species to go extinct . . so at least we are creating new species as well?
Its cool to see nature adapting to the world.but at the same time I don't know if its a good thing, or a bad thing that climate change might have caused a new species